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Veröffentlicht am Wed, Aug 24, 2005 11:20


LushusJackass write:
Kragen says:
"God leaves evidence behind of His presence. After all, they did find what appeared to be the remnants of Noah's Ark somewhere in the mountains of Turkey years ago."

"appeared to be" being the keywords.
I actually bothered to check this out. Here is what I found:
"Bible-believing geologists thoroughly examined this object and found only different types of rock. If it were the Ark it would contain fossilized wood, but it doesn't. Some people thought they found fossilized wood in it in the 1980s, but it turned out to be basalt (a volcanic rock)."
and
"The shape of this formation is like a fossilized boat, but it does not fit the dimensions of Noah's Ark given in the Bible (length six times its width). This formation's out-proportioned width is all wrong."
===

Hang on a second... you and I must've come across different websites, because the one I had found (and I wish I had bookmarked it) was listing what was found as being about the same dimensions as the description of Noah's Ark found in the Old Testament.

Okay... here's the U.R.L. I found via a certain search engine: wyattmuseum (you know what to add.) It is the site I originally had come across. I don't have any problem with listing my sources since a lot of you folks want evidence.

===

Just a few examples.

As for "too many life experiences" causing me to find religion invalid.. not entirely. Obviously, who I am right now is due in part to life experiences. However, a huge part of why I discount religion, is because I actually bothered to try and find the answers to (what I thought were)unanswerable questions. In my search for these answers in the bible, I found nothing but contradictions and inconsistencies. I gradually found myself relying more on reality, and insisting on being honest with myself, rather than blindly embracing a book with horribly incorrect information and terrifyingly violent suggestions.



So I take it that you're not into horror at all... okay. Neither am I. What I need from you, are examples of the "horribly incorrect information." Cite sources. I'd like to see the evidence you present, because you ask us for evidence, and it's only fair that we ask the same of you. I know about some of the violent suggestions; there's a few in Exodus and Revelations I can think of offhand.

And while I'm thinking about it, we're probably better off starting a brand new topic because we've clearly strayed from the topic of the original post.



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Veröffentlicht am Wed, Aug 24, 2005 00:22

Kragen says:
"God leaves evidence behind of His presence. After all, they did find what appeared to be the remnants of Noah's Ark somewhere in the mountains of Turkey years ago."

"appeared to be" being the keywords.
I actually bothered to check this out. Here is what I found:
"Bible-believing geologists thoroughly examined this object and found only different types of rock. If it were the Ark it would contain fossilized wood, but it doesn't. Some people thought they found fossilized wood in it in the 1980s, but it turned out to be basalt (a volcanic rock)."
and
"The shape of this formation is like a fossilized boat, but it does not fit the dimensions of Noah's Ark given in the Bible (length six times its width). This formation's out-proportioned width is all wrong."

Just a few examples.

As for "too many life experiences" causing me to find religion invalid.. not entirely. Obviously, who I am right now is due in part to life experiences. However, a huge part of why I discount religion, is because I actually bothered to try and find the answers to (what I thought were)unanswerable questions. In my search for these answers in the bible, I found nothing but contradictions and inconsistencies. I gradually found myself relying more on reality, and insisting on being honest with myself, rather than blindly embracing a book with horribly incorrect information and terrifyingly violent suggestions.



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Veröffentlicht am Tue, Aug 23, 2005 21:22


Theophrastus write:
You know Jaton, if you're going to debate physics it would be a good idea to actually know what you're talking about as opposed to piecing it together based on star trek.

The bottom line is that there is no satisfactory proof for the existence of God. Nothing that would stand up in court let alone the physics lab. This is why people have faith... it's an admission of irrationality.

Well theo, Your debating on something that you dont believe in. How rational is that? And here we go about evidence...lol. I knew that was coming again. I seriously suggest you go look up how the earth is positioned and tell me it was by chance...For all of that to fall in place just perfectly...I dont think so. Common sense tells you that. Thats why god gave it to you.



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Veröffentlicht am Tue, Aug 23, 2005 15:08

Okay. Jaton.. your list of incredibly juvenile "scientific" points had me laughing all day long. I am no student of physics myself.. but I can most assuredly say, that just because we die and the earth spins, does NOT leave a god as the only explanation. Do some real research, and you'll find that there are many, many credible sources that will give you some alternative (and dare I say, more rational) answers to your questions.

As for why an atheist would feel compelled to comment on whether a woman should be allowed to be a minister..? Well, that's really simple.

I'm a human being that lives in the year 2005, in a "free" country. Just because my beliefs differ with someone else's, doesn't mean I should automatically be opposed to that person pursuing their life's goals. It's not my life to control. Whatever makes you happy, y'know?

I am, however, opposed to a complete stranger telling me, or anyone else, that they aren't ALLOWED to pursue their life's work because a book that was written centuries ago decrees that women are not worthy, equal, or capable.

It's not too hard to understand, really.



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Veröffentlicht am Tue, Aug 23, 2005 11:06

LushusJackass:

There is nothing in the Bible that says that women cannot have opinions. It sounds a lot like you've had a few too many life experiences that made you discount the validity of Christianity.

= Women and the Ministry =

It was intended by God for men to lead. He did not intend for women to walk behind men, but beside men. God intended for man and woman to be the nucleus of the family unit. Did you ever notice in households where no man is present, a lot of the kids tend to get out of control and have behavioral issues?

Now let's extrapolate that family structure, with the church, any Christian church but Catholic will do in this case:

You have the minister, who is male, and more often than not, he will already have a wife. They're SUPPOSED to be the model for their congregation to follow. The men are supposed to relate to the authority figure, the women are supposed to relate to the wife.

Okay, this isn't working like I intended to... I'll just use a personal experience.

A couple years ago, I went to a church where a woman was preaching. While I do respect her for taking over while her husband was in the hospital, I nevertheless found that the experience just didn't really feel right. It felt like something was missing, and I'm one of the most open-minded folks you'll find out there. I know that I was there to hear the message, without it mattering who delivered it, and she delivered it well. There was just a... disconnection. I really don't know how to describe it any other way.

For the record, I never said that I was against a woman being the authority figure in a church, just that for me, it didn't work out well.

I think the problem here is that some folks can't change the Bible to suit their own purposes in this day and age, so it's easier for them to discard it.

= Bible vs Koran =

Christ did warn about false prophets.

Well, somewhere around 600AD (don't know exact dates,) an angel meets with Muhammed to give him a Koran.

There are two other problems here:

It was warned that even Satan could assume the image of a being of the light (he WAS an angel at one time!)

Revelations was supposed to be the last of the books of the Bible, talking about the end times. The Bible covers beginning to end, so why do we need yet another book?

God leaves evidence behind of His presence. After all, they did find what appeared to be the remnants of Noah's Ark somewhere in the mountains of Turkey years ago.

I see no similarity between the Five Pillars and the Ten Commandments, so that was quite a reach.

Another problem with the Koran is that to have a "true Koran," you have to have one written in Arabic...

Now, if you wanted your message spread, why would you limit it to one language?

Christ explained the burning bush thing (well, the prinicple that you couldn't really see God's face without dying) but Moses actually went up a mountain and came back down with those two stone tablets (and he was probably only one of the VERY few to have possibly seen God's face.)

Moses got the Ten Commandments directly from the source.

Muhammed got the Koran via other means.

= Religion and God =

Technically, the way I understand it, religion is the belief system. According to that statement, Atheism would be a religion. So would Agnosticism (is that the correct term?)
Knowledge of God forms your belief system, or at least, should be at the center of it... so they're intertwined. So you have Judiasm. Add Christ, you have Christianity.

I guess that wasn't a clear, cut, and dry answer. Sorry... wasn't an easy question.

As for Richie... poor guy... but I do get a tad annoyed with his posts being all over the place having nothing to do with the topic at hand.

= Politics and Religion =

Yes, it is very hard to separate the moral framework and the religious beliefs.

France really is interesting... those folks are more "team-oriented" as opposed to the "individual-oriented" mentality over here. The banning of signs of religion over there... I can see where they're coming from: if you make an exception for one, you have to make an exception for all. The fighting over the religious symbols that goes on here; France is nipping it in the bud before it gets out of hand there.

Aborti0n... I've already admitted to not making a very good Christian, so I can say that I have no problem with it just as long as it's not being used as a form of birth control. (Well, if your condom breaks and the birth control pill fails, okay... then get something done about it.)

= Existence of a Higher Being =

The problem with the argument "There is no satisfactory proof of the existence of God" is that the reverse is true, that there is no proof that God does NOT exist. At this point in time, science can not come up with all the answers.

I guess it's a fluke to some folks that we're all here, supposedly randomly.

I cannot accept that it was all random, and I cannot accept that we're "just here" without a reason or a purpose.

I guess if you want to call me irrational because I've felt the power of the Holy Spirit (and almost spoke in tongues as a result) and having heard an ex-gf speak in tongues (and she turned holy water into oil, in front of another friend of mine) and I have my faith, then go ahead an call me irrational... I've been called a lot worse than that.

  


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Veröffentlicht am Tue, Aug 23, 2005 08:59

Oh... this thread is making my head spin!! I've been following this thread for the last week or so and I think some good points have been made on both sides. It all really seems to come down to the fact that we are all human beings with a free will and we have the ability to make choices. We all have or will come to a point where we make choices about what we believe to be true. Choices regarding our faith are very precious to all of us and as can be seen in the thread we all defend them voraciously (sp?). Instead of continuing to debate who is right and who is wrong, I'd much rather hear people's life stories of how they came to their decision, whatever it is, on the issue of faith. If you want to continue to debate, cool, but just wanted to offer an alternative.



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Veröffentlicht am Tue, Aug 23, 2005 00:54

Ok so let me get this straight....your an atheist, your not a christian, but your bashing another lady on whether woman can become a minister or not? Ok this a flip flop. Your bashing on something you dont believe. Plus when you said you were a atheist..that should have been enough. Why go through all the A)I need evidence
B)When everyone realizes that the bible was written by mortal men. Being an atheist should have said enough. But It seems like you are wanting answers for those things or you wouldnt have mentioned them. You seemed like you had to explain why you were a atheist. I am sure everyone on here knows what an atheist is, so no need to explain why you were. Want evidence on wether there is a god? Science done told you quite a bit but Ok. Common sense tells us alot.

1) If we were one planet closer to the sun, we would burn to death, one planet away...we would freeze to death. Was it by chance?...lol.
2) Earth spins on a perfect axis throughout the year, never goes off line. We get nighttime and we get daylight.By chance?
3) Why do people pass away? What would be the point in dying if there wasnt anything after this? We would all live forever, but thats not the case.By chance?
4)Big bang theory? Humm...well this is a total waste of time. Cause something cant come from nothing. So thats out.
I could keep going but...so many to name.
I admit...i am not the perfect person in the world, but alot of this is common sense and faith.

All i hear is I want evidence, i want evidence. You cant see air, does that mean you want evidence cause you cant see it? You cant see love, does that mean you want evidence cause you cant see it?
All it takes is believing.



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Veröffentlicht am Mon, Aug 22, 2005 18:32

Most of us atheists weren't raised this way. I obviously knew enough about Christianity to make the decision later in life to discount it's validity.

Even if I didn't know anything about Christianity? My initial post would *still* be valid and relevant. I'm hardly going to sit here and read a post by someone (a woman herself, no less) telling another woman that she's not "allowed" to become a minister, because "the bible says so". That's 100% crap, and excuse the hell out of me for taking the time to say so.

*Gasp* I have opinions. Is there something in the bible that says women can't have those either?

These forums are open and free for all members, and I do believe I am just as entitled to my opinion as the next person.



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Veröffentlicht am Mon, Aug 22, 2005 13:20

Theophrastus:

I was talking about knowing nothing about God. Religion and God are not exactly the same thing.

I would prefer that religion and politics stay separate, especially since it seems that those folks trying to get elected to public office on their "moral values" are usually the ones doing the most damage by doing "immoral" things once they get there. Classic example:

Twig gets into office using the platform of tax breaks and Christianity as a disguise to cover up a revenge plot against Saddam Hussein because of an assassination attempt on "41."

Twig gets to start an illegal war, using about five different excuses when it's all said an done, and, 3 years later, we're seeing $2.599/gal on the average for unleaded here in Arizona.

Now... I have my beliefs... I don't really care what someone else does as long as it's not affecting me in any way or bring unwanted harm to anyone else. Only reason I'm in the whole "discussion" is because The Word Of God was being attacked by a non-believer.

I saw that thread about "The Lost." How did you know he was referring to you? Did you feel somewhat uneasy because someone might have just been praying for you?

Of course, as Christ predicted, a believer would get mocked and ridiculed for his faith.

This is one of the biggest things that ticks me off; we're supposed to accept everyone and their beliefs, but you mention Jesus Christ and you will see some "true selves" showing. But yet, if we don't show acceptance for a questionable belief system like Islam, we're intolerant.



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Veröffentlicht am Mon, Aug 22, 2005 12:39

Freysh:

I didn't miss what the others were saying, and the point about the Bible being written by mere mortals is not lost on me.

Yes, there are places where the Bible doesn't flow smoothly from one "story" to the next. Yes, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in the New Testament all give varying interpretations of Christ's life and his earthly ministry. Yes, Saul is made Paul after Christ's death and resurrection and he begins preaching a new message for "the rest of us." You have to take into account that everyone else was preaching a message for the Jews at the time in an effort to enlighten them, to let go of the old "Law," and to follow Christ.

On another site, where stuff like this is discussed regularly, it's called "rightly dividing." You have to read the Bible and determine the situation and the following it was intended for. Old Testament covered mostly Jews, or rather, Isrealites. New Testament, up to about halfway through Acts, covered mostly Jews. The rest of Acts on covered everyone else.

There are too many folks using the Old Testament as an excuse to avoid becoming a Christian; but the idea of Christianity is to follow the path that Christ taught, which was a path of love and forgiveness... He even said "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone." The other part of the problem with a lot of people is that there are too many other people too willing to pick apart the Bible and use whatever they can find as an excuse not to follow it.

You don't believe that the Jesus is the Son of God the Father? A lot of Jews didn't believe it either, and they fulfilled that prophecy.

You don't believe that Jesus was born of a v!rgin via the power of the Holy Spirit? Muslims don't believe it either, yet they expect us to believe that Gabriel just handed Muhammed the Quaran. (Which, by the way, no one can seem to find that original text dating back to Muhammed's time, but yet, parts of the Bible from waaaaay back where found all over the place.)

Atheists may be well-informed about religion in general, but being informed about the difference between God's and Satan's voices? I doubt it.

The answer to that ORIGINAL question: God's voice does not contradict what was said in the Bible. And if you still have trouble figuring it out... err on the side of love.

Ignorant, I am not. I'm just tired of the attacks on the Bible.



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Veröffentlicht am Fri, Aug 19, 2005 13:53

Politcs and Religion... those are two topics that should never cross paths.

Bush is an idiot who calls himself a Christian to appeal to the "Old Testament" right-wingers who wouldn't know anything about compassion and loving thy neighbor even if Jesus Christ Himself came back and smacked them all with clue-by-fours.

Unfortunately, these days, the belief systems of too many people have been hijacked to get votes, justify wars, terrorism, etc.

I'm a Christian, but I will be the first to say that I don't make a very good Christian. What gets me about this whole topic is that a Christian was looking for an honest answer about differentiating between God's voice and Satan's voice, but some Atheists jump in and spew their garbage about something have nothing to do with them... so...

If you atheists don't believe in God, why are you even bothering to put your two cents in on a topic you could possibly know NOTHING about?



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Veröffentlicht am Fri, Aug 19, 2005 13:05

A lot of atheists (and even just non-christians) share the belief that Jesus may have very well been a real person (I know quite a few that aren't entirely sure of his existence at all).. but just not the son of a deity. I personally think Jesus was a philosopher, with some new things to say.. at a time when people were looking for more. So for someone to mention him, or talk about a comparison to him in jest.. is not entirely unheard of :P



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Veröffentlicht am Thu, Aug 18, 2005 21:38

ok, i think you missed the whole point of what i said...but its cool. Besides, from what i read of your post..you being an atheist, (i am guessing) even mentioning jesus or for that matter thinking of being compared to him says alot about what you really do believe. So my words are finished.



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Veröffentlicht am Thu, Aug 18, 2005 15:14

Couldn't have said it better myself. ;)

Non-christian people, specifically in the US, are persecuted on a daily basis. Our own president declared atheists to be "unamerican". He doesn't even consider us real citizens.. and that's just the tip of the judgemental fundie christian iceberg. So the next time you're feeling like someone is bashing Christianity, just remember, non-believers put up with a heap more bashing than you likely ever will.. every single day.



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Veröffentlicht am Wed, Aug 17, 2005 21:38

yep..i totally agree lushus. Views are what are expressed here and whatever you believe is what you believe. So no harm done...its a site to express opinions about certain individual beliefs.

As for the comments of theo...well..thats a totally different subject. I have seen other forums you have written in and all of them are either about "bashing christians or what they believe". The very fact that you mention about it in everything you say, says you are looking for something that your not finding. So why pursecute those who dont pursecute you?



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Veröffentlicht am Tue, Aug 16, 2005 22:27

(I am honestly not trying to provoke or disrespect you here.. but..)

Let's try something. Humor me for a moment, and pretend that everything I'm about to say is totally sincere.

The Harry Potter books have changed my life. The profound realizations and spiritual insights I experienced whilst reading them have forever altered my path. I feel that I am now much closer to J.K Rowling, and embraced by her infinite love. Without these books, I feel completely lost.

Kinda ridiculous-sounding, isn't it?

Now you're seeing what I'm seeing..

Please don't take this as a personal attack. That is absolutely *not* what I'm attempting to get across here. I'm just interested in sharing perspectives..



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Veröffentlicht am Tue, Aug 16, 2005 21:57

ok...see i knew this was going to get touchy....lol.but its ok...its a message board and we are all here to view and believe in what we want to. As for theos comments...i am not and i repeat am not offended by what she believed, its up to you wether you accept jesus christ in your heart. But i was offended at the comments made on a book that changed my life....it would be like me offending someone you like....you wouldnt like it to much, so its like someone offending my family.



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Veröffentlicht am Tue, Aug 16, 2005 20:33

Thanks so much for that, Theo. :)

Typically, I don't bother posting on message boards and such, especially in threads devoted to religion.. since I know I can easily get carried away. However, the post made by pianistgail was just so.. saddening to me. I've read it many times, hoping that I was just interpreting it the wrong way. I find myself truly aghast that so many people can go through life *totally disregarding* what they know deep down to be true, fair, compassionate and appropriate.. in the name of religion, god, and blind faith.



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Veröffentlicht am Sat, Aug 13, 2005 00:14

Lol I knew I was going to catch a little hell about that. I even considered going back and changing it once I was done.. but.. that's the way I feel about it. I apologize for using such a bad choice of words.. and I totally respect your opinion about it. (I just hope that respect is mutual).
I'm just a realist. I don't feel the need to believe in something that I feel is unnecessary in order to live a good life. I don't need a special book to spell out the rules and regs.. being a decent person should be common sense, not because it was a proclaimation from "god". I'd rather be a kind and compassionate person for the sake of being fond of humanity, not because I'm petrified of god's wrath and damnation (he's so loving) .. or because I want brownie points from him.



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Veröffentlicht am Thu, Aug 11, 2005 19:14


LushusJackass write:

pianistgail write:
I hope you will test the spirits before you invest money in becoming an ordained minister. The scripture is VERY CLEAR that women are not to be pastors/ministers. The qualifications for pastors/ministers are outlined in the New Testament. Also, God is quite clear that a woman is not to usurp authority over a man. There are many wonderful things women can do for Him and there are many positions we can hold. One is to minister to women (especially the immature Christian women) in the church.



The misogynistic tone of the New Testament can be blamed mostly on the Council of Nicea. They re-wrote and edited many biblical passages in a time when male-dominance was the "norm". Mostly for political reasons, as well. I'm an atheist, personally.. but if I were to believe in the Christian god, it would be a) When I obtained some empirical evidence, and b) When everyone realized that the Bible was written by mere mortal men, some of which having their own agendas and viewpoints.. not to mention having been written in a time when women were hardly considered equals. To embrace these teachings without question, especially in this day and age, would take an awful lot of intellectual dishonesty with oneself. If the Christian god truly is *all loving*, wouldn't he be more than happy to have another devoted member of his flock, in the form of a minister, no less.. even if it were a woman? I do hope no one feels personally offended by my opinion here.. but I find it offensive when someone limits themselves (or tries to limit others) based upon a book of fables that claim women can't be whatever they want to be.
Ok, i am not offended by your opinion, however, as you, i find it offensive (as a christian myself) that someone would call "the holy bible" a book of fables. Sorry but this is not a book of fables. This is a true testament of the living god. My opinion! And the funny thing is the very fact that you are looking for evidence says alot. Not being mean and I certainly respect your opinion, but again...the bible...to me....means the world to me and for someone to call it a fable is not cool!



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